Comments on: Truncated berries http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/ all things phonology | camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:43:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Abdullah S Alarcon http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2511 Abdullah S Alarcon Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:35:08 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2511 <p>It would be very interesting to conduct an experiment with a fifth grade classroom to find out what shortened spellings they would come up for the most popular berry fruits.</p> It would be very interesting to conduct an experiment with a fifth grade classroom to find out what shortened spellings they would come up for the most popular berry fruits.

]]> By: Travis Bradley http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2506 Travis Bradley Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:11:25 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2506 <p>I would be interested to know whether the vowel percept is [ɪ] after consonants other than nasals. If the consonant gestures are minimally overlapped, then the intrusive schwa fragment might be perceived as raised only in the context of a preceding nasal. Something similar happens in Southern American English, where /ɛ/ and /ɪ/ neutralize to [ɪ] under nasalization.</p> <p>I guess then we would have to say that speakers can be aware of gestural effects, at least in language game situations where producing novel forms requires more attention and concentration.</p> I would be interested to know whether the vowel percept is [ɪ] after consonants other than nasals. If the consonant gestures are minimally overlapped, then the intrusive schwa fragment might be perceived as raised only in the context of a preceding nasal. Something similar happens in Southern American English, where /ɛ/ and /ɪ/ neutralize to [ɪ] under nasalization.

I guess then we would have to say that speakers can be aware of gestural effects, at least in language game situations where producing novel forms requires more attention and concentration.

]]> By: Michael Covarrubias http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2505 Michael Covarrubias Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:15:49 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2505 <p>Elderberries would not need an epenthesised vowel would it?</p> <p>If the quality of the last vowel in [bɔɪzənɪbz] is important to the form might it be a trochaic requirement introducing enough stress to give the vowel its [I] quality?</p> Elderberries would not need an epenthesised vowel would it?

If the quality of the last vowel in [bɔɪzənɪbz] is important to the form might it be a trochaic requirement introducing enough stress to give the vowel its [I] quality?

]]> By: Nancy Hall http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2504 Nancy Hall Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:20:39 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2504 <p>My theory (which obviously not everyone would agree with) is that epenthesis and low overlap are different things. Epenthesis is when you insert a new vowel articulation and create a new syllable; low overlap is just an alternate way of pronouncing a consonant cluster (which is still phonologically a consonant cluster). In which case Karen might not be really epenthesizing, but just producing unfamiliar coda clusters like /nb/ with low overlap. Maybe if you've never produced a certain coda cluster before, you have no canonical phasing relationship to guide you, so you just pronounce the consonants individually. </p> <p>But if she's conscious of the vowel's presence and insists on a particular quality for it, that might argue that it is a real epenthetic vowel. I don't think speakers are usually very conscious of gestural effects. </p> <p>Have you tried blackberries, loganberries, cranberries, gooseberries, elderberries, cloudberries...?</p> My theory (which obviously not everyone would agree with) is that epenthesis and low overlap are different things. Epenthesis is when you insert a new vowel articulation and create a new syllable; low overlap is just an alternate way of pronouncing a consonant cluster (which is still phonologically a consonant cluster). In which case Karen might not be really epenthesizing, but just producing unfamiliar coda clusters like /nb/ with low overlap. Maybe if you’ve never produced a certain coda cluster before, you have no canonical phasing relationship to guide you, so you just pronounce the consonants individually.

But if she’s conscious of the vowel’s presence and insists on a particular quality for it, that might argue that it is a real epenthetic vowel. I don’t think speakers are usually very conscious of gestural effects.

Have you tried blackberries, loganberries, cranberries, gooseberries, elderberries, cloudberries…?

]]> By: Eric Bakovic http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2503 Eric Bakovic Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:32:51 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2503 <p>This is entirely possible in this case, Nancy -- though in the case of [bɔɪzənɪbz], Karen did insist that it was a [ɪ] instead of a [ə], for whatever that's worth.</p> <p>I don't think this detail of analysis actually affects the point I was making, though (preliminary and nonconclusive as it is). As I understand it, Davidson (and others who work with gestures in OT -- including you?) assumes there are constraints on gestural overlap, at least one of which get violated when there is insufficient overlap. So, that just substitutes for Dep in the epenthesis analysis, and the candidate with "a low level of overlap between consonants" would substitute for the candidate with epenthesis. Does that materially affect the point?</p> This is entirely possible in this case, Nancy — though in the case of [bɔɪzənɪbz], Karen did insist that it was a [ɪ] instead of a [ə], for whatever that’s worth.

I don’t think this detail of analysis actually affects the point I was making, though (preliminary and nonconclusive as it is). As I understand it, Davidson (and others who work with gestures in OT — including you?) assumes there are constraints on gestural overlap, at least one of which get violated when there is insufficient overlap. So, that just substitutes for Dep in the epenthesis analysis, and the candidate with “a low level of overlap between consonants” would substitute for the candidate with epenthesis. Does that materially affect the point?

]]> By: Nancy Hall http://camba.ucsd.edu/blog/phonoloblog/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2502 Nancy Hall Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:52:23 +0000 http://camba.ucsd.edu/phonoloblog/index.php/2006/08/19/truncated-berries/#comment-2502 <p>"Bloobs" and "strawbs" sound fairly natural to me; the other two don't. One question that occurs to me is whether the vowels you heard here are real vowels, or only transitions. It reminds me of Davidson and Stone (2003)'s experiment, where English speakers had to pronounce unfamiliar consonant clusters in pseudo-Slavic words like "zgomu". Some speakers produced acoustic schwas, but ultrasound suggested that there was no actual vowel articulation there, only a low level of overlap between consonants.</p> “Bloobs” and “strawbs” sound fairly natural to me; the other two don’t. One question that occurs to me is whether the vowels you heard here are real vowels, or only transitions. It reminds me of Davidson and Stone (2003)’s experiment, where English speakers had to pronounce unfamiliar consonant clusters in pseudo-Slavic words like “zgomu”. Some speakers produced acoustic schwas, but ultrasound suggested that there was no actual vowel articulation there, only a low level of overlap between consonants.

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